Talk:Memory manipulation

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The following sources are used for determining evolved human ability names, in order:
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2. Near-canon Sources Webisodes,
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iStories,
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Descriptions
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description is possible

Note: The highlighted row represents the level of the source used to determine memory manipulation's name.
Source/Explanation
"Memory manipulation" describes what Damian can do.

Mental Manipulation?

It has not been officially stated that Damian possesses Mental Manipulation, but I think it would be logical. He used physical contact to enter Gabriel's mind (much like the Haitian), and, as the name suggests, manipulated Sylar's mind. As we've seen for many abilities (healing touch, space-time manipulation, telepathy, etc), ability development occurs in nearly every power, with the exception of most biological abilities. Mental Manipulation could be used for more than cerebral dampening (the Haitian can search through their memories). I'm not saying that this is definitely the same ability, but it's possible. What do you guys think? --Cerebro 20:49, 20 October 2009 (EDT)Cerebro

  • Same problem was with Anna Korolenko's ability: like Haitian, she can erase memories and knock people out, but she hasn't displayed the power negating aspect. Neither has Damian, so his ability shoudn't be MM. Also, the Haitian claims he cannot restore memories. Green.gif AltesUTC CH
So far, we are shown that he could only bring back forgotten memories and based on what Samuel said to Sylar, "In his hands, your true memories will be returned". Shouldn't a consensus be made for this?--NiveKJ13 (talk2me) 06:28, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
The Hatian said he couldn't restore memories that he erased. Right before his father tried killing him, he brought back many of the memories his father had naturaly forgotten. He said it was like pulling jewels and gemstones out of a muddy field or something. So yes, MM has restore memories in some fashion. Since Sylar's murders were never erased by the hatian, someone with MM could have potentialy brought them back to im, so damein might have MM.--Piemanmoo 01:59, 29 October 2009 (EDT)
    • Those weren't exactly forgotten memories, those were memories that Guillame had, but he didn't remember he had them because he hadn't thought of them in quite a while. I'd say that what the Haitian did in that occasion is similar to what Matt did to Noah in Season Three, when he, Peter and Mohinder kidnapped Noah. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 16:24, 29 October 2009 (EDT)

Consensus

Memory Restoration

  1. Based on the desctiption--NiveKJ13 (talk2me) 06:33, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
  2. Nicely describes the ability. --Radicell 06:37, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
  3. Nice and simple. --NuparuMahnika 08:50, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
  4. Perfect.--Ratclaws 09:28, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
  5. Unless something better comes up. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 10:55, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
  6. Agree with the above. (presently). --mc_hammark 12:49, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
  7. Sounds fine for now -- Jenx222 · U · T · C 13:09, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
  8. Damian restored Sylar's memories, and "returning" sounds like memories were in Damian's possession, and he gave them back. Green.gif AltesUTC CH
  9. Nothing to say that hasn't already been said. -- Psilaq R.- \m/ -_- \m/- 16:41, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
  10. Sounds good to me, unless something is clarified that majorly changes the definition of his power. --V2Blast 00:20, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
  11. I think this is a good name...until/unless we learn more. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 00:27, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
  12. I think this is the (almost) perfect name for Damian's ability. Sounds correct, too! --Hiroman 16:06, 27 October 2009 (EDT)
  • I don't like this name. The memories were NOT restored, they were projected onto the screens. They appeared alien to Sylar. Sylar still isn't Sylar otherwise he wouldn't have rejected them they way he did. This name is misleading. Getbrett 02:05, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
  • Actually they are restored, Sylar states, "All those murders. All those memories in my mind but I cannot believe that they're mine." The reason he rejects them is because he doesn't understand why he killed them. He hasn't experienced the hunger. Yet. --mc_hammark 06:06, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
    • Sylar cleared this up definitively in the latest episode: he does not recall the memories directly, they were not restored, he still has Nathan's memories innately. Getbrett 06:22, 27 October 2009 (EDT)
      • Agreed, Sylar is still only remembering Nathan's memories. Restoration is in no way correct. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 10:48, 27 October 2009 (EDT)
        • Restoration is correct, the reason Sylar still thinks he's Nathan because Matt brainwashed him. If Sylar were just "Haitinized", he'd assume his real identity. Green.gif AltesUTC CH

Memory Projection

1. This phrase, "project" is actually used on this ability's page already. So why not call it memory projection as we have seen the memories are in fact projected and "re-lived". AJUTChronicles

2. Simply calling it memory restoration does not fully describe the effects of Damian's ability. He did not even actually restore Sylar's memories (as in, make Sylar remember them), as much as take what Sylar did not remember and project it onto a screen so he could see it. In the House of Mirrors he was terrified of what he saw, not what he remembered. I think this name is better. Swm 13:49, 22 October 2009 (EDT)

I don't oppose it, out of the current three names, the only one I don't like is memory returning. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 13:51, 22 October 2009 (EDT)

I agree too, the name was appropriate on what we see when he used his ability --Darkfiremaster13 05:15, 27 October 2009 (EDT)

Memory Returning

Memory Restoration Projection

Why don't combined the two names, projection is a big part of the ability but this can be like Matt's telepathy where he can project an image to a person head. Restoration like Linderman to show he is healing it.User:50000JH/signature

  • This name irks me, it's too long, and considering we have seen little about this ability, it might impose limits that the ability doesn't actually have. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 11:25, 25 October 2009 (EDT)

another 2

Why when we sturck on naming an ability we put, name's ability, unless we get another 1 with the same ability and if they do have it in a different form and start to debate if it is. Wasn't meant to be rude. User:50000JH/signature

It will be more

I think his ability is much more than this. Samuel says he has a powerful ability, and restoring memories doesn't seem that powerful, it's just accessing a part of the brain that a person cannot themselves. --mc_hammark 14:41, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

  • Going on that line, I'd say he might be able to jumpstart abilities, if a person has them, by accessing the part of the brain that controls it. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 14:54, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
    • Were the memories that Sylar saw in the hall of mirrors not ones that aren't even in his head right now but rather are in Matt Parkman's head with the part of Sylar that is in him? - Colin
      • The memories are clearly in Sylar's body, otherwise Damian wouldn't have been able to make them appear in the mirrors. I wonder why no memory belonging to Nathan appeared, Sylar got some of those with clairsentience for weeks. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 17:46, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
        • I think Damian can pinpoint a memory that he wanted to show, Samuel wanted the old Sylar back that's why he made him see the memory of Sylar and his victim.--Darkfiremaster13 05:19, 27 October 2009 (EDT)
  • Maybe it doesn't bring back/display memories that were put in him by other means - only his "true memories", as Samuel said. --V2Blast 00:19, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
    • He should've seen Nathan's death then, and if he thinks this is who he is, he should've wondered how the man who looks like him killed the one who he thinks himself to be. Green.gif AltesUTC CH
      • Sylar ran out of the House of Mirrors while the projections were still going on, so it's likely he would have seen Nathan's murder had he stayed. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 10:47, 27 October 2009 (EDT)
        • Possibly, but it's still speculation. --OutbackZack 20:33, 28 October 2009 (EDT)

In the first section there is a mention of it being Mental Manipulation, we know it can't be that as The Haitin can't restore memories. In this section Mc hammark has mention that Samual has said it a powerful ability and restoring memories is not that powerful. what if is ability is the opposite to The Haitin's? since he is more powerful than Peter, Sylar and Arthur. If he can unblock the power of the Haitin blocking abilities? Then what about anti-mental manipulation.[50000JH 12:18, 2 November 2009 (EST)]

Name Change

As much as I hate "person's" abilities, was this name change agreed on?--Ratclaws 09:13, 6 November 2009 (EST)

  • I'm not sure if a consensus was actually reached but looking at it above it seems like memory restoration was the favourite, not sure if it should have been moved yet though - Jenx222 | U / T / C 09:17, 6 November 2009 (EST)
    • My thought was Memory Projection since he only seemed to be projecting Sylar's memories.--WarGrowlmon18 11:14, 6 November 2009 (EST)
      • He touched Sylar, and he saw his past in the mirrors. Seems to me like Sylar himself projected his memories. But if the memories didn't return, there would be nothing to project... Green.gif AltesUTC CH
        • Sylar doesn't have that sort of ability. I think he was just projecting what was in Sylar's mind the whole time. Hence Memory Projection.--WarGrowlmon18 11:43, 6 November 2009 (EST)
          • I'm not saying Sylar can project his memories onto mirrors, I mean that Damian only awoke his memories, and Sylar saw them like that. Green.gif AltesUTC CH
            • In the latest episode it's definitively shown that Sylar does not have his memories restored. This name is therefore incorrect. --Getbrett 05:07, 10 November 2009 (EST)
              • Please see below, as I give a good reason for a name change (and much more info). If people don't agree, I want to open a new consensus, because now we've extra info from Shadowboxing. --Janrodrigo 08:52, 10 November 2009 (EST)

Memory

Just to clear out some discussions. I want to explain few things. First of all, there are 2 kinds of memory: cerebral memory and extracerebral memory.

Think of the brain as a machine. Mind co-operates with the brain. But, none of them can work independantly. Mind can exist without a brain however it won't be aware even of its existence and a brain without a mind is a dead brain. So both a mind and a brain need each-other in order to function, eg. think, remember, recollect memories.

Just to clear out one more thing, it's mind that remembers, thinks etc. not the brain. Brain only assists to the mind for functioning. Brain is roughly a complex and specialized collection of billions of neurons (nerve cells), functional in perception and recollection (remembering).

So, where are the memories stored? Good but intriguing question! There are a lot of theories about it by both psychologists and physiologists, but one good answer would be; "it is stored both in the mind and in the brain" - helas, by very different means. One extra-info here; both the brain and the mind have different layers and those layers do not exactly correlate one by one.

Different layers of the brain are associated with perception accuracy, physiological functions, emotions, memory storage etc. and by different layers of mind, we understand, the conscious mind, the sub-conscious mind etc.

OK, so what does happen when we experience something in our daily lives and how do we remember them? "Qoute:"

Perception in the primary stage is registered in the mind, through neurons, and the vibrations of those perceptions remain imbedded in the neurons, through Na-K concentrations... ...the vibrations in the neurones remain undistorted for quite some time. ...than the vibrations in those neurons become indistinct. ...At that stage, the memory is stored to a part of the mind, which is correlated with the nuclei of the neurons not the axons...

So, normally when we remember smthng., we actually, "revive the undistorted image of percieved incidents in the neuron".


  • When your mind remembers something that happened to you, or something you did, or learned within a short span of time, it reaches out to the neurons where those short term memories are embedded and retrieves/recollects them.
  • However after some time, your mind needs to work harder as those short term memories are faded away. It needs to reach at a deeper level of itself. But it still assists the brain for it.
  • Actually if you try to remember something that happened a while ago, you're recollecting the memory rather from the mind than from the brain, although it's still recorded in the brain, in deeper layers (limbic system).
  • Unwanted memories, supressed memories, and very long ago (like early childhood) memories are also in those deeper layers, but little bit deeper.


So, in the case of Sylar,

  • A basic part of his mind who resides in his own body, even in amnesia, only remembered to have been in the forest and being shot. Because it was the short-term memory that he only could recollect using his neurons. (Hysterical Blindness)
  • Damian, using his ability, recollected all the memories, both suppresed and active ones, from the brain of Sylar, and projected them (most probably starting by those Samuel wanted), to the mirrors. (Tabula Rasa) (Therefore, here I prefer "memory projection")
  • The mind of Sylar (at least the biggest part of it) who is attached to Matt's brain (and who, thus uses Matt's neurons to function), seem to remember everything about his own life, because the memories had also been registered to the mind and they are not suppresed as in the case of Sylar-the-body.
  • According to Chandra Suresh, abilities' manifestation comes from and depends on the brain. (Six Months Ago) And according to many episodes, we know that they depend on DNA (actually their manifestations depend on gene expression). So, it's nothing but natural that Nathan/Sylar or Sylar-the-body manifested, and is still manifesting Sylar's abilities.
  • Shadowboxing establishes that Damian did not actually restore Sylar's memories but only let Sylar-the-body watch those memories from the mirrors.

Sincerely,

--Janrodrigo 08:37, 10 November 2009 (EST)

  • I agree with "Memory Projection" from the start, I think it perfectly described what we saw on Tabula Rasa --Darkfiremaster13 06:33, 11 November 2009 (EST)

What this power is

This is clearly something more than we've seen given what he did to Hiro. I think he was trying to bury his memories or something so Samuel could control him, but whatever he did, it went wrong. This isn't just memory restoration I'd say this is more like Memory Manipulation.--WarGrowlmon18 21:24, 23 November 2009 (EST)

  • It seems to me to be essentially Memory Control, a little like the Haitian's ability minus the power nullification aspects. It certainly can't be called restoration or projection anymore in any case. Swm 06:21, 24 November 2009 (EST)
    • Should we call it Memory manipulation?-- Yoshi | Talk | Contributions 09:35, 24 November 2009 (EST)
      • Memory manipulation is the best choice.--Ratclaws 09:36, 24 November 2009 (EST)
        • More people agree?-- Yoshi | Talk | Contributions 09:57, 24 November 2009 (EST)
          • Sounds good to me. Swm 10:25, 24 November 2009 (EST)
            • Seems more fitting considering what we've just seen him do to Hiro - Jenx222 | U / T / C 10:30, 24 November 2009 (EST)
              • Well I don't know about that but till we don't have more exemples, it makes more sense to me to call it "Memory manipulation".--Kleith 10:36, 24 November 2009 (EST)
                • Should we vote?-- Yoshi | Talk | Contributions 10:50, 24 November 2009 (EST)
                  • Everyone who voiced an opinion so far seems to support "memory manipulation". I say we give it a couple days, if no one is against it, we don't even need to vote. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 12:10, 24 November 2009 (EST)
                    • I like it-- By Danko CH 12:17, 24 November 2009 (EST)
                      • Agree. Doesn't give any less than what he's done, or any more. --mc_hammark 12:59, 24 November 2009 (EST)
                        • I'm all for that. --Yamawhata? 16:57, 24 November 2009 (EST)
                          • Though I never voiced my opinion on here, I wanted this power to be called Memory manipulation from the start. I'm all for this change. :) Vampirate68 | Talk | Contribs 17:33, 24 November 2009 (EST)
                            • Well given that all are in favor of my suggestion I suggest we change it.--WarGrowlmon18 18:02, 24 November 2009 (EST)
                              • IE said to give it a few days. It's only been a few hours, but I'm not against it.--Catalyst · Talk · HL 18:05, 24 November 2009 (EST)
                                • I'm all for moving it now, I just want people to get this window of opportunity so we don't get annoying "U guyz chngd it 2 fazt" or similar in a foreseeable future. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 18:10, 24 November 2009 (EST)
                                  • I agree with said change. --OutbackZack 18:42, 24 November 2009 (EST)Plus I wanted to make this longer too :P
                                    • I agree too --Darkfiremaster13 01:20, 25 November 2009 (EST)
                                      • The caption for what he's doing to Hiro says he's "manipulating", so "Memory Manipulation" it would seem to be. --CourtesyofTVRage.com 23:41, 24 November 2009 (EST)
                                        • Me too thinks memory manipulation is good for now :) --Janrodrigo 01:32, 25 November 2009 (EST)
                                          • It deffinitely fits, plus I love the sound of it :P --Skullman1392 14:16, 25 November 2009 (EST)
                                            • Should we change it now? everybody seems to agree.-- Yoshi | Talk | Contributions 14:19, 25 November 2009 (EST)
                                              • It has been about 3 days. Can it be changed now?--Ratclaws 13:10, 26 November 2009 (EST)
                                                • Sounds good to me. --Skullman1392 13:14, 26 November 2009 (EST)

Arthur

We currently list Arthur as possessing mental manipulation. This is speculative, as Arthur hasn't shown the render-unconscious and negate-powers aspects of that ability. I think we should list him as a user (or absorber) of this power instead, since it is specifically related to memories. --Radicell 07:07, 14 December 2009 (EST)

  • BTE said Arthur used mental manipulation. Green.gif AltesUTC CH 07:19, 14 December 2009 (EST)
    • Ah, really? Okay then. :) --Radicell 07:23, 14 December 2009 (EST)

Memory projection?

Well considering how this ability has been used so far, shouldn't this ability be named memory projection? Its been used twice to project memories onto the mirrors in the hall of mirrors. Also should it be noted that multiple can view the memories? Claire and Noah both witnessed Noah's past in The Wall. --Leckie -- Talk 17:16, 2 February 2010 (EST)